Subtitle Woes

It's been mentioned before, but I only speak english. So that leaves me with two options when watching anime. I can watch it dubbed, or I can watch it subbed.

Whenever I mention dubbed anime, people shriek or snort in disgust, and point me to subbed anime. Most people I've talked to about it really dislike dubbed anime. For voice actor reasons, from what I've gathered. However, I find it extremely difficult to watch subtitled anything (not just anime) because I end up reading the words instead of watching the show/movie. I find subbed anime easier to find than dubbed though.

The only long term solution I see to this is to learn japanese. That way, it's easier to find the anime I want to watch, and I don't have to bother with subtitles if I can't find dubbed.
So, my question is, how would you guys recommend I learn the language? For those of you that can read/speak it, what was the easiest way for you? Preferably an inexpensive method.

I would also welcome alternative solutions, if anyone has any different suggestions.

-Edit-

Forgot to mention. Personally, I haven't had much of a reason or need to care about original voices or anything. That's why dubbed has never been an issue to me. If the voice isn't utterly horrible for the character, then I'm fine with it. That means not comparing the original voice actor and the dubbed voice actor. Just the voice and the character.

Yeah that happens to me to. I wish I could find a way around it. And every where I go I cant find places that teach japanese.

You have a few options when it comes to learning Japanese. The most effective (and most expensive) would be going to Japan for a long-term visit (immersion method; you learn or else) and/or taking Japanese language classes.

Of course, neither of those options is likely to be feasible. There are a number of different Japanese language textbooks available, and many of them are designed for people who are teaching themselves to a certain extent. Yes, it's still a monetary outlay, but the cost is markedly lower than a Japanese course at a school would be. I have found the Living Language Ultimate Japanese books to be useful, and when I was taking Japanese in school my classes used Jordan's Japanese: The Spoken Language and Japanese: The Written Language.

The downside to using books is that, unless they come with audio tracks on CD/DVD it will be much harder to pick up how the language is spoken. You need listening practice in order to tune your ear to the language.

http://smart.fm/series/3318 - this link has audio and video samples available in streaming format. I haven't really used it much, so I don't know how useful it will be overall.

If you want to be able to understand anime in Japanese you need to keep watching it in Japanese. This will help you tune your ear to the language, and you will be able to pick up phrases. Watching it with subtitles will help you to associate the phrases you hear with their English equivalents. Combining this with textbook-style study will help you pick up the language. Just remember: the majority of anime characters do not speak using "textbook" Japanese. They use slang, dialects, non-standard structures, and often rather blunt language. If you were to go to Japan and talk like an anime character, people would likely look at you as though you were a bit strange.

I don't know how much you've tried watching things with subtitles, but I can tell you that the more I watched things with subtitles, the less overall attention I had to pay to the text in order to read it. At this point I would say I tend to read subtitles peripherally more than directly. Sooner or later I think most people who watch things with subtitles are going to pick up this sort of knack, purely as a self defense mechanism.

For written Japanese, the same language textbooks will provide a basis for grammar and vocabulary study. A good kanji guide and a good dictionary are pretty much essential. Beyond that...pick up some untranslated manga (preferably stuff that ran in a magazine like Shonen Jump or Shonen Sunday or Ribon or Hana to Yume to start out with; you'll want something with furigana to help you with pronounciations). Then just go through and try to read it in Japanese.

This will take time. It will likely be slow going. Persistence is key. But it is possible to do a decent job at self-teaching and attain a reasonable level of competence in the language.

:D

I use subtitles even on English-language shows quite often. And on dubbed anime - you know how sometimes in the anime there's a talking head for like five minutes and the only thing that's changing in the animation is the mouth flaps? I'm super grateful for subs at that point, because otherwise I get really bored and want to turn it off. (Shakugan no Shana is really really bad for this, and I'm having to force myself to finish the series. I haven't actually seen an episode since January, I've been avoiding it for so long. On the other hand, the Haruhi series is good about having stuff going on in the background when someone's doing a monologue.)

Anyway, alljapaneseallthetime.com is supposed to have various methods to learn Japanese fairly quickly, both for being fluent for business/travel and for just enjoying the media. I can't attest to its efficacy, because I only care about being able to read Japanese, and I've been very very lazy about the Heisig course I decided to go with :P

shadrach_anki is right about how the more you watch subbed anime, the easier it is to just glance at the words and focus on what's actually happening. You'll learn it too. It happens naturally.

I'm trying to learn Japanese too. I wish I could watch anime in Japanese, with Japanese subtitles. THAT'S what would really help me.

If you have an iPhone/iTouch I recommend downloading Human Japanese. It's extremely helpful and it's what really made me feel like I could actually learn Japanese! I also recommend iStart Japanese (Mirai Japanese). It's really helpful too, with dialogue.

Even if you don't have an iPhone/iTouch I recommend downloading Japanese learning podcasts from iTunes. Such as Japancast.net and Survival Japanese. OHHH and of course I Speak Japanese/Happy Hour Japan. I love those guys :3 They have a facebook where they post example dialogue:
http://www.facebook.com/?sk=nf#!/ispeakjapanese

Good luck. :)

Thank you guys for the great suggestions. I'll be checking out these things, and decide which one/s I like.

"This will take time. It will likely be slow going. Persistence is key." Yeah. Persistence is something that's hit and miss with me. I can stick to the silliest choices (like quitting chocolate and pennies) forever, but important ones or ones I actually want to do, that's difficult for me.

You were right about learning from books, Anki. That's the one thing I don't like about books. They don't actually talk back. Well, most of them don't. Does Japanese: The Spoken Language come with an audio cd/dvd?

You also mention the difference between what most anime characters speak and what actual people speak. Is there any anime you know that uses more proper japanese? And is it pretty easy to understand the proper/slang if you know the slang/proper?

Actually, Keri, I never noticed that. I can sometimes be pretty oblivious. XD I have noticed that in some anime, the background is completely still while only the main characters and the things they are interacting with move. It can be weird and it can be amusing.

Raven, do those podcasts cost anything to download? And are they only available on iTunes? I'm willing to spend a little money, but online will be a bit more difficult to find a way to pay for. And I don't really want to download iTunes just for a few podcasts, when I already have a media player. (And am hoping for visualizations to come to SongBird soon.) I'm kinda trying out a few different ones, trying to avoid iTunes actually.

-Edit-

Hmph. Internet never seems to like the pointy bracket smiley these days...=/ Had to remove it. It vanished most of my message away.

What #3 said.

I taught myself intermediate level japanese from manga and subtitled anime. As a disclaimer though, I already had some years of formal Spanish and Latin courses, as well as a strong interest in linguistics, translation and the history of writing systems. So I knew already how to approach the language and not to try to find one-to-one correspondences. Japanese isn't any more or less difficult than any other language, it's just that the writing system is very daunting at first and the thought processes stem from a different way of looking at things. That's the hard part - thinking "backwards." But grammar is grammar is grammar and it has to make a weird kind of sense or the language wouldn't work.

I watched subtitled anime for a while, then bought some manga. I Printed out a chart of kana so I could learn it, and read a few lessons of Japanese 101 on various web pages. Then I just kept "reading" manga. First it was only understanding names and basic phrases, but as long as I already knew the story, I found that if I stared at the words long enough they started to make sense. I would look at different types of manga to try to get the knack of learning vocabulary and word forms from context and then I'd go back and apply it to something familiar.

I read and watched casually for a few years. I wasn't really TRYING to learn the language (like I said, just an interest in linguistics, translation, and writing systems in general,) but when I finally decided to take some university courses in it, I was able to get a minor in Japanese quite easily. I only started having trouble in that very last Japanese for business course and that's because I am not good at talking polite circles around the main point. I am way too blunt.

If you really want to study the language to be useful this isn't the way to do it. You'll have to actually study it and, most importantly, use it with another person. I am not anything near fluent - I just get by. But then, I'm not really looking to use it for my day job.

iTunes apps:
Human Japanese is $10
They have a free version too, so you can try it out first.

Kana
To help you practice Hiragana & Katakana.

iStart Japanese $4.99
They also have a free version, with limited content. Honestly, the paid version is limited too. So I'd just go with the free one.

But there's also this:You can download their podcasts I found that just now so I don't know how good it is. But I think it's the same as what's on the app.

Podcasts:
ISpeakJapanese/Happy Hour Japan They posted all their videos on facebook, so you can watch them there. If you have Facebook.

Learn Japanese @ Japancast.net
Learn Japanese w/ Beb & Alex
One Minute Japanese***
SurvivalPhrases (Japanese)***
Japanese Class
The Japanese Learner

They're all free on iTunes and I think that's the only way you can get them. _@ But I still recommend them because they are so helpful.

This is how I've been learning so I don't how to recommend my best methods to someone who doesn't want iTunes. But you asked about the prices so I guess it's okay.

Online Help Sites
Then again here's some of the sites I have bookmarked...

Online Lessons

Learn Japanese Pod

Someone else's list

Maybe those will help?

You can also check your local library for books and audio books. That way it's free.

To be honest (prepares a shield to cover herself from all the rotten fruit that's about to be thrown) I really don't understand what the whole "issue" is with dubs. Yes, I will admit, there have been times when I disliked the voice that was chosen to portray a particular character, Sanzo from Saiyuki comes immediately to mind. But it wasn't that I didn't like the actor - I just felt the voice chosen didn't fit the character.

Overall I enjoy dubs...Kenshin, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun - all of them are shows that I watched and LOVED in their dubbed versions. Of course, a purist would tell me "it's just not the same", but what difference does it really make as long as both the Japanese and English actors do a good job? To me, that's just like different interpretations of the same role.

For example, if Michael Gambon had come in and tried to reproduce the same Dumbledore played by Richard Harris, fans would have cringed in their seats. Instead he took the character and made it his own. In my mind, that's exactly what dub actors are doing. Granted, some do it better than others, but is that really a reason for people to lash out and say all dubs suck?

*shrugs* Not trying to cause a riot here, just my two cents on the subject. ^_^

I think the problem with dubs dates to the 4Kids crap in the 90s, when many of the dubbed series were completely bowdlerized. Cardcaptor Sakura was changed almost entirely and called Cardcaptors with more emphasis on the boy character, in order to supposedly appeal to more boys, or something. As an example.

And I think a lot of people haven't really got over the distrust of dubs from that. Personally, I dislike most dubs because I can't stand the way the voices sound. They don't sound natural to me, and it's bothersome (especially for girl characters) (I don't like the voices in many American cartoons, either).

The issue with 4Kids, although not something I've personally experienced, is something I can entirely understand. I'd much rather watch subs than have my anime cut up into bits and pieces. :( I get angry just watching an episode of Naruto Shippuden on Toon Disney *laughs* The only reason it doesn't bother me that much is because I know I get the uncut version when I buy the DVDs.

As for the way the voices sound - I believe vocal resonance plays a big part in what you're saying. All of our ears are different, and something that sounds good to one person isn't necessarily going to sound good to someone else. For example, I don't really care for most of the Japanese female vocals, whereas I adore most Japanese male vocals. *shrugs* It's all personal audio preference.

However I also believe that voice acting, like any other kind of acting, can quickly and easily fall into societal "norms". You can really see this in a lot of the old black and white movies from the 30's & 40's - Men, women, and children all have a very distinct way of speaking - not because the actors couldn't speak any other way, but because that's how they were directed to speak - that's what Hollywood thought the public wanted to hear.

Eh...anyway, I feel like I'm babbling a bit now. ^_^; Basically I'll watch either/or, although dubs are more convenient for my personal purposes. What gets on my nerves (because I've dealt with a few in the past) are the self-proclaimed "purists" who refuse to watch ANYTHING dubbed. Kraal mentioned them at the beginning of the original post - the ones who "shriek or snort in disgust" when dubbing is even brought into the conversation. There are some very good non-Japanese voice actors out there and I think they deserve our recognition, not our contempt.

Okay, I'm stepping off of my soapbox now. ^_^;

I love dubbed anime too. I guess I'm just not as picky as some and I'd rather not spend my time reading the subtitles. The original and subbed versions may be better, but the dubbed version is good enough for me.

Heh, wow. It's been a crazy however long it's been since I've last posted. Looking back up to my last post, it's been a little over two weeks. I have hardly spent any time home that did not include sleeping in that time.

I'm glad to come back to see that not everyone I talk to has the same issues with dubbed anime as people I've met in the past.

I found out recently that the college I am going to does not offer japanese currently. I had decided that I'd love to take the class if it would work towards reqs, since I'd get something out of it I would actually use. Alas, I have been disappointed. However, I will hold onto hope for the class in the future.

Anki, your mention of the immersion method is a valid one. Shame I have neither the time nor the money. I did just remember that one of my friends was learning japanese. Perhaps she could be talked into teaching me a little. And then I could pick up a book too, and learn from both.

I checked out the smart.fm site, and I kind of like it. I'm having issues with it though. The lessons don't want to advance for me. I sort of looked into the iSpeakJapanese, but it looked like it was a paid thing, for the full version. And I'm limited in the sites I can pay on. Maybe I'll break down and download iTunes so I can check out a few of the free apps you mentioned Raven.

I wish Rosetta Stone wasn't so durn expensive...it's supposed to be really good. All well...maybe I can save money over time.

Here's something else that just hit me. During my trek to find a good learning source, it appears that there are different kinds of written japanese. When learning the written language, are they generally taught together, or separately? If the latter, then which is most important?

Macs, I understand the thinking 'backwards' thing. I took spanish in highschool, and it was structured differently than english. (I was never that good at spanish...heh.)

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll certainly refer to this thread every now and then to make sure I don't fall into using only one narrow solution. =)

Personally, I think you should learn the writing system concurrently. It doesn't take too long to learn hiragana and katakana at least.

There are indeed different types of Japanese writing, and they're used for different purposes. When I took Japanese at university, we learned them in the following order:

Katakana - used for non-Japanese words (names, loan words, etc), some sound effects, and for emphasis. This is a phonetic syllabary, and each character stands for a specific sound.

Hiragana - This is the second phonetic syllabary used in Japanese. There are katakana equivalents to all hiragana characters. Hiragana is used to write Japanese words. The characters are more loopy and flowing than their katakana equivalents.

Kanji - Chinese characters used to write Japanese words, and for Japanese names. These characters are not phonetic.

Most Japanese text is a combination of hiragana and kanji. Depending on the text you may have small hirigana characters (called furigana) next to one or more kanji, indicating how the kanji should be pronounced.

My recommendation is to focus on really learning the hiragana and katakana. Kanji you can learn at a slower rate without too much trouble.

Okay. So Katakana and Hiragana is something I should learn together, with Kanji kind of on the back burner.

My attempts at learning japanese will have to wait as well. School started, and I won't have much time to the stuff I used to do.

So, while I won't be going gung ho with all of this just yet, I do hope my questions and the wonderful help you all have been giving here helps others as well.

Katakana and hiragana are fairly easy to learn. I recommend choosing one to start with, then printing out the chart on Wikipedia that shows the stroke order. Then choose four or five that seem easy to learn and try to memorize them (I began with hiragana because I knew a few of them from Samurai Champloo's episode where Mugen learns to read/write, way back in 2005, which was probably the last anime I really watched until last summer :P), then when you're comfortable with that set, add another four or five. It took me a couple weeks of very lazy, very unorganized practice that way to learn the hiragana (I would try to reproduce sections of the chart during five-minute breaks at work, for example), and maybe a week to learn the katakana, which I found slightly more difficult, because the characters seem to be more similar to each other, like "wa" and "fu" and "u" being similar the way the alphabet "p" "g" "q" "d" "b" are similar. (Actually, some of the hiragana are also similar like that, but somehow I don't find them as troublesome as the katakana.)

I found http://www.unckel.de/kanateacher/index-en.html to be very useful, though I didn't discover the site until I had mostly learned the easiest katakana with my own (lazy) method.

So even though school and work make it annoying to really focus and learn the more complicated kanji, I think that learning the kana might be something easy enough to do when you're bored... though that's also how I'm working on my kanji. I learned the first 70 or so really quickly in the Heisig book, but I've been super lazy with the next 70, and have hardly made any progress in the last month, and now classes start next week, so all my not-at-work/not-doing-school-stuff time will probably be spent vegging with romance novels and the like :P

Don't put off learning Kanji. I really wish I had started with it from the beginning. I think the BEST time to start learning Kanji is WHILE you are learning Japanese vocabulary. Any new Japanese word that you learn--also learn how it's written in Japanese (meaning, with the Kanji if there is any). It's probably ok to use Furigana though (small hiragana characters written over the Kanji, so you know how to pronounce it).

I just bought two books Kanji Starter 1 by Daiki Kusuya and Kanji Pict-o-graphix by Michael Rowley. Haven't started using them but I think they'll help. And I'm going to make myself some flashcards with a picture on one side and the correct spelling (in Japanese) of the word on the other. It'll be written with kanji and the furigana will be hidden under post it notes. I'm not going to put a single speck of English/romanji unless I want to write down some kind of note about it. I really think this is the best way.

i aint reading this........

>20 ruby_x1: then why did you revive the thread for the entire internet?

>21 aspirit: Heyy your back can you make me an admin now?

around the world around the world :)

>21 aspirit: YOURE BACK????

>24 katzuo_kxtty: shhh, no, I'm not here. (I logged in to post about Banned Book Week in the Banned Book group and saw new posts in MAA. Got curious.)

>22 Abinadiyinyang: no, I really can't. Notice that my name isn't in the admin field on the group's main page? Hasn't been there for more than nine months, since I resigned. Only Covid_Karen or the LibraryThing team member who's responsible for all groups on the site can assign a new admin. I'm going to be blunt, though: behavior like bringing up off-topic requests in old threads and like not bothering to search on how the admin role is assigned won't look good to the LT team.

On-topic: Subtitles are best with some understanding of what anime characters are saying in Japanese. Many jokes and nuances in honorifics don't translate well, so layers of meaning are missed. That's not even considering how much is censored out in English, like with the famous "cousin" couples.

This topic reminded me to pick up another book to practice hiragana. (See >16 shadrach_anki:.) My ability to read Japanese is lousy. I've always slacked off when trying before. So thanks for the reminder, ruby_x1.

>25 aspirit: HOW HAVE YOU BEEN I MISSED YOU!!!
btw do you recognize my username it might have been ChiakiNanami at that time

ChiakiNanami hmmm?

>27 Abinadiyinyang: yea its my old username from when I joined I was obsessing over her
kokichi is the best though -v-
but now its this

oh its a danganronpa thing in my gallery its the girl with the pink-ish hair